I'm the type of person who has always been proud to pay his income taxes.

[LuckyCharms]

Most people don't especially like paying taxes, but I kind of do. It's a cost to us because we live in society.

In a society, things that benefit us need to be paid for, because nothing comes for free.

Now, there are several tax laws that I don't particularly like, and I don't like that fact that corporations, and singular billionaires, can literally skirt paying ANY taxes if they work hard enough to find and take advantage of loop holes.

In spite of this, I've always viewed paying income taxes as my duty as a citizen. The same with voting. It's my duty and responsibility.

But now...I'm having these gnawing feelings of despair, because I feel like my income taxes are eventually finding their way into Trump's pocket, ICE bonuses, kidnappings on the street, and military equipment and personal to blow up small fishing boats.

I'm nobody, nobody in the big picture. But still, what little of it there is, it's MY money, and I don't want it to go into Trump's pockets. I don't want one cent to go to ICE so they can harass food vendors and chase scared Americans (or people of any nationality) into their homes, making them fearful to go outside again for the rest of their lives.

I'm thinking really hard, trying to figure out if I'm a hypocrite in a way, because I never felt this way when thinking about contributing to the funding of foreign wars. I don't like it, but I view it as that's "just the way it is and I have to grin and bear it".

But what is happening now feels different to me. I draw a picture in mind of my paltry sum of money getting stuffed into the suit jacket pocket of the orange one. Because that's where a lot of our taxes end up, one way or another.

In the meantime...people starve.

I know this post is a little convoluted, and some parts may be contradictory, but I can't help feeling this way. I'm having trouble expressing this entire concept without coming across as a hypocrite.

If anyone responds, please don't hit me with "but you didn't mind paying money to fund the wars in Afghanistan, Israel, etc". I know...and that's why I'm struggling with the nature of how I'm currently feeling. It's hard to put into words.

And the reason maybe why I feel like a hypocrite is...do I feel this way because the brutality is hitting too close to home now?

I'm really doing some soul searching about this all of this...

[Bluestocking]

1. I am okay with paying taxes

since my Federal tax payments go to:

Pay the air traffic controllers
Pay for the VA to help old and sick Veterans
Pay for programs that help the poor like WIC
Pay for arming the Ukrainians in their war against Russia
Pay for the national parks
Pay the salaries of Democratic congresspeople
Pay the TSA
Pay for the Federal highway system upkeep
Pay for NASA

None of my tax dollars go to any Republicans or ICE

[LuckyCharms]

2. Really?

"None of my tax dollars go to any Republicans or ICE"

[Ms. Toad]

10. Unless you are paying only retirement taxes, your tax dollars are going to both ICE and the salaries of Republicans

employed by the US government (including Trump).

[MerryBlooms]

19. 🤭

[Ferrets are Cool]

31. I don't understand your last line, unless it is just wishful thinking.

[rsdsharp]

3. " Taxes are the price we pay for a civilized society."

Justice Oliver Wendell Holmes.

Do we still have to pay if the society is no longer civilized?

[LuckyCharms]

5. I guess we still do...

Because if we don't, the gestapo will be all up in our faces like stink on monkey.

It's an amazing world we are living in.

Amazing, but not in a good way.

[yellow dahlia]

15. Reasonable question.

[SamKnause]

4. I never complain when I pay my taxes.

I see all the things tax dollars do, and all the things I use that were paid for with tax dollars.

I thought that was how society is suppose to work.

[LuckyCharms]

6. I feel the same, but now...

nothing is working as it should.

The rotting orange pumpkin completely ignores Congress, who holds the purse strings.

He does what HE wants...not what the individuals who were elected to represent us want.

Come to think of it, Congress doesn't do what most of the American people want either.

It's FUBAR.

[Emile]

7. Taxes are the price to live in a civilized country.

People who complain about paying their share, should move.

[OldBaldy1701E]

26. I don't mind the people who are complaining about taxes.

I mind the rich assholes who are not paying any.

THEY should be the ones to move!

[Prairie_Seagull]

8. You are not alone. nt

[ForgedCrank]

9. It is human

to be flawed. Yes, you are human, and you are flawed, and there is some level of hypocrisy in your feelings. But guess what? Every single one of us does this at one level or another. We are human, and we have opinions. We mock the right for demanding their tax dollars don't fund abortion, then we insist ours don't fund immigration enforcement. There's absolutely nothing wrong with having a position on different matters. Where I take issue is when we dehumanize one another over opinions. I'm not saying you are doing that, but a lot of people are, including right here on DU. The Charlie Kirk thing was a really big eye opener for me; the way people behaved was downright shocking to me. Those are the lines I'm talking about. not simply having a differing opinion.
I once was in a really civil conversation with a "pro-life" parishioner at my church who said they thought late term abortion was evil. I asked them how they calculated that, as in, where is the date line and how do you draw it? They were 100% honest with me and said that they felt it was never a good thing, but within the first 2 months was more acceptable and they had zero input on a formula used to calculate that dividing line, it was just personal feeling. There is absolutely nothing invalid about that even though it is neither a logical nor a strict approach. Not everything must be black or white, that is a trap we often fall into.
So I don't think you really have an ethical dilemma. You would if you were a statistician arguing among peers, but that's now what most of us are. Yes, your reasoning has a flaw only in that you cannot apply your reasoning to every single subject with predictability using a stated formula.. Again, we are ALL like that when it comes to certain subjects, so I wouldn't let it weigh too much.
Just my opinion on the matter.

[LuckyCharms]

11. Valid.

Thanks.

[Lifeafter70]

12. Every year we owe about 2k in Federal taxes

And we have the max withheld from our checks. Our combined gross income each year is around 75k.

Occasional a customer will complain about paying taxes while I'm ringing up their groceries. I always let them know that I don't mind paying and why. That usually stops their complaining.

There was one young lady who had recently moved back to California from Georgia, complaining about the high cost of food and taxes. I let her know while many other states (including Georgia) taxed groceries California did not. She insisted I was wrong. I showed her the register tape, which had no taxes on her food Items. Her reply was "well they used". Nope not in the my 73 years.

Edited to add: california did try to tax candy and soda and that failed. They do tax prepared "hot deli food" it is considered convience food similar to eating at a restaurant.

[ForgedCrank]

13. I don't

see it that way.
You are correct, there is no line item on the receipt for sales tax on food.
That said, choose one item. For simplicity. make it an apple since it has but one ingredient for raw materials. Before that apple got to the shelf...

- Tree had to be planted by someone who got paid a wage.
- Ground has to be tended with both labor and equipment
- equipment takes fuel to operate
- fertilizer and insecticides have to be applied, also with labor
- the fruit has to be harvested, equipment and labor
- it has to be packaged into boxes that are purchased
- it has to be QC's and inspected
- it has to be shipped to a distributor on our roads in trucks that are taxed
-it has to be shipped to the individual stores all using road equipment
- it has to be unloaded from the truck and stocked on a shelf
- a cashier must ring it all up for you, more labor

This is a very simple list as the real one is a complex tree that runs deep and it probably 200X this long in reality. For example, just the cardboard box the apples are packed in has an entire chain of it's own. ALL of these things are taxed from the top, to the bottom, including every wage dollar paid out to make it all happen,. Fuel tax, tire tax, sales tax on equ... tax on equip repairs, people to manage all of that, they are taxed. So that $1 apple that is not taxed at the register is really a 25c apple and 75c worth of tax overhead that is hidden in the cost to produce it. Obviously I'm taking a wild guess on the percentages here, but more dollars are filtered through government as taxes than people are able to realize. The majority of all dollars pass through the hands of and are spent by government than the people themselves. People would revolt if they ever sat down and realized just how much money government takes

[Lifeafter70]

14. I understand what you are saying about hidden taxes

But that wasn't what this young lady was talking about. She was stating she was taxed at her point of sale. Which was not the case. She kept insisting that to be true until she actually looked at the receipt. She did see taxes but it was clearly accounted for on non food items.

[ProfessorGAC]

17. See My Reply To That Poster

Well over half the things they listed are not hidden taxes. They aren't taxes of any kind.

[ProfessorGAC]

16. A Bit Confusing

How are;
QC, Labor & Equipment, fertilizer, distribution (absent fuel tax), store staff wages, ...hidden taxes.
Those are assignable costs to produce, not taxes.
If labor is 20% of total cost to produce, the payroll taxes are only 11% of that, or 2.2% of cost to produce.
All those items add to the direct cost of the apple. That's not a tax.
Your example seems to conflating assignable costs with taxes. They are hardly the same thing.
It would be like bundling the cost of crude & operational cost of refining into the retail price of gasoline. The petroleum & operating costs are COSTS, not taxes.
Not sure where you're going with this.

[Lifeafter70]

18. Thank you

[ForgedCrank]

20. All of

those things are taxed. Producers don't just assign the cost of post-tax salaries. It's the same with all services all through the chain, for every single component or element. If someone makes raw plastic, the cost is a total including taxes on every step and salary, but it is down to every element, including the TAX they pay for electricity, property, employee salaries, equipment (that is also massively inflated by it's own production chain and the included taxes). It is stacked miles deep, and it is all taxed at every level in the same ways and it compounds into huge totals by the time the price tag is attached for the consumer. No, it's not pure tax, it is a percentage, but it IS in the assigned cost of every single step and every single element, and it is consistent throughout the chain. So yes, they are the same thing. The label "tax" is just stripped away because it is in the cost of producing everything. The taxes are included in all of those things and it is all passed on to the next step in every product and every item in a BOM to produce something. It's layered many companies deep all along the chain.

[ProfessorGAC]

21. Not All

You should quit digging.
Salaries are not taxed beyond the payroll taxes which I mentioned.
Equipment is not taxed.
In fact, depreciation on that hardware is a non-cash expense, which actually lowers the tax liability.
You are lecturing someone with an MBA and worked for multibillion dollar, multinational corporations.
You are simply wrong about this

[ForgedCrank]

23. Ok, you

win. I am completely wrong and I should be ashamed.
Congrats

[MichMan]

34. Equipment is not taxed directly, but those manufacturing the equipment are and they pass that along to the buyers

[ProfessorGAC]

36. Hardly The Point

Your reply is a nonsequitur.

[mainer]

22. Now I want my taxes to go to my state

At least then I know where it's going.

[MichMan]

35. That is the same argument used by those who favor eliminating federal agencies and making the states responsible

[mainer]

37. I would be happy to send my taxes to the feds

But not now, when they're punishing blue states by defunding HHS, DOE, and sending the national guard to harass blue-staters.
They are using our tax dollars against us.

[dlilafae]

24. Lucky Charms

I also vehimently object to how my taxpayer dollars are currently being spent. While I never in my life gave one thought to having a voice on where my tax money goes. ~~ Then: (because at hand: most line items I agreed with, and some things I did not). But that's not so anymore. Imo, we're paying taxes that will eventually lead to
our own demise. This is not the same universe we've become accustomed to. Therefore, my 'go to/or standard pat answer(s) and feelings are brand new. It now reflects the changes that have been forced on me as part of my citizenry in a nation led by a felonious criminal.

[LuckyCharms]

25. I like your statement:

"We're paying taxes that will eventually lead to our own demise".

That's how I feel too, and that's what I'm trying to come to terms with.

[Biophilic]

27. It's a time that calls for soul searching.

So many things I thought were true, aren’t. Many things I thought I understood, I didn’t and often still don’t. My world view and those things I based it on have been turned on their head. Having to view this current country and world situation without a solid foundation often leaves me a bit sea sick. Sometimes I feel like it’s been weeks since I saw the safety of land. Yeah, I get it.

[LuckyCharms]

30. +1. Well said.

This is what happens when everything LITERALLY get turned upside down.

It's crazy-making, it takes strength and focus to understand the truth, and it takes even more strength and focus to educate those who are ambivalent or unaware of what is actually happening.

It wears you down slowly, and makes you question your own sanity.

But, that's their plan. exactly. To "flood the zone with shit" in an attempt to permanently produce our quiet acquiescence.

[Turbineguy]

28. If you have to pay taxes, you're in good shape, pay them.

[Haggard Celine]

38. That's the way I look at it too.

I'm glad I make enough to pay taxes. I haven't always.

[Attilatheblond]

29. Paying taxes didn't bother me before the criminal mob took control. Now, I am glad I'm poor enough to be mostly untaxed

Knew an old duffer in a very remote, small community where all but 12 people were GOP/Tea Party/Now MAGA. He was retired from running a harvesting company out of Texas. They harvested grain all fall, moving from south to north as the wheat ripened. He puttered in a little shop in this tiny town, custom fabricating items for ranchers.

Mainly, his little shop was just a hang out for other old duffers. He would work on his projects while they chattered and complained. Mostly, they grumbled about taxes. He listened til he had a belly full of their whining.

"I am PROUD that I have to pay taxes! It means I did well, made money. Made enough money that my tax 'burden' was greater than my operating expenses, which most of you fellas work hard to balance so you pay little to no taxes. I live in a great country and was given opportunities thanks to the people before me who paid taxes to build a great country. I am grateful and don't begrudge contributing to the big kettle so other people can also live and have opportunities...."

His words surprised me a bit, as I knew him to be a staunch conservative. Turns out he was a real conservative, not one of the fools who voted R out of habit or sense of family tradition. He was NOT like the others in the area, blindly following whatever the GOP talking points de jour were.

Paying taxes didn't bother me before hearing his quiet, wise words. But after hearing his words, well, my chest swelled just a bit every year when I wrote a small check to my favorite uncle, the tall one with the outlandish suit of blue coat over red and white striped pants. You know the guy, white hair, little beard, tall hat.

After hearing the old guy's comments, I became boldly vocal about reminding complainers of all the things 'tax money' provided for them personally. Would finish up with: Unless you live on your own plot of land, drink from a well you dug, eat only what you raised and wear clothes from fibers your grew, spun and wove, never go beyond your own property line, you don't go thru a single hour without benefiting from what society has provided you, from tax dollars.

[Ferrets are Cool]

32. I loathe those commercials..." I owed the IRS $135,000 and with the help of

Such and Such Co, I only paid $2,000. PAY YOUR FUCKING TAXES, LOSER.

[OC375]

33. Age Old Dilemma

Few have ever been 100% onboard with where the government spends their hard earned money. As things cycle left and right, it’s alternately easier and harder to swallow. Still beats doing it all oneself, so I still choose to pay. Not many options but to pay and then go back in to work tomorrow morning.