Poll: In a dramatic shift, Americans no longer see four-year college degrees as worth the cost

[Yo_Mama_Been_Loggin]

Americans have grown sour on one of the longtime key ingredients of the American dream.

Almost two-thirds of registered voters say that a four-year college degree isn’t worth the cost, according to a new NBC News poll, a dramatic decline over the last decade.

Just 33% agree a four-year college degree is “worth the cost because people have a better chance to get a good job and earn more money over their lifetime,” while 63% agree more with the concept that it’s “not worth the cost because people often graduate without specific job skills and with a large amount of debt to pay off.”

In 2017, U.S. adults surveyed were virtually split on the question — 49% said a degree was worth the cost and 47% said it wasn’t. When CNBC asked the same question in 2013 as part of its All American Economic Survey, 53% said a degree was worth it and 40% said it was not.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/articles/poll-dramatic-shift-americans-no-100000902.html

Depends on what you want to do. I have a nephew who received a BA in Philosophy who works at a Total Wine and More store.

[drray23]

1. Given the outrageous cost of the tuition I can see why they would think that.

However, if you go to a community college, it's a different situation altogether. There are already 30 states or so offering free community colleges. If you are in one of these, it is profitable unless, of course, you want to pursue a career not requiring it like a trade.

[SheltieLover]

2. There goes critical thinking skills, right out the window

[hlthe2b]

5. Exactly. They will know zero history, have zero writing and critical thinking skills,...

They will be unable to spell or pronounce even the most well-known place and person names, and will be absolute sieves for the most ridiculous conspiracy theories and blatant manipulative lies.

I'm not saying EVERYONE needs college to accomplish the above, just that so many who have not, never acquire such skills. Some do, but most? And I am already observing this among those making videos on YouTube and elsewhere. There is a certain mid-late twenty-something music producer who reviews the music of the past, who comes to mind, but so too do so many so-called TV journalist-contributors and HOSTS. Damn. If my worst offenses are occasional typos, a misplaced comma or two, and a tendency toward run-on sentences (guilty, I know), then I think I get to make that assessment.

[milestogo]

14. They will be gullible

which means they will vote for liars like Trump and follow religious cult leaders.

[SheltieLover]

15. Not to mention history & civics!

I completely agree with all you've written.

[leftstreet]

8. Critical thinking concludes college is too expensive

[fujiyamasan]

22. You don't need a four year degree for any of that

If our primary school system functioned as it should, students would learn all of that from K-12.

[Happy Hoosier]

32. Critical thinking is really a more advanced skill.

Primary and secondary education can only really build a foundation of knowledge. Critical thinking depends upon a more fundamental evaluation of epistemology, which is much harder than it might appear. Some high school students can kinda get it. But even most college students struggle with it. There’s a reason a lot of jobs requiring complex decision making require a degree, and that’s pretty much always been the case.

[SSJVegeta]

3. 4 year college should be free.

The positive impacts are on society as a whole, not necessarily the individual.

One example is how Harris wouldve won fairly easily if only people with at least a bachelor's degree voted. That percentage increases the higher the education level.

[PCB66]

38. I have a MS

and most of my friends and family are college educated. Some of them are dumber than a doorknob on a lot of things

For instance, one of my DILs has a MS in Sociology but told me a few months ago that she had never heard of the Alamo.

Meanwhile the plumber that spent two days at my house doing work seemed to be quite versed in American literature when he commented on the books in my library.

My mom born in 1923 only had an 8th grade education but was better educated than many college graduates I have met in my life.

[SSJVegeta]

42. Yet they are statistically more likely to make better decisions and vote the right way

Which makes the collective investment worth it.

[Turbineguy]

4. It's easier if you can get people to want being poorly educated.

[Happy Hoosier]

33. Anti-intellectualism is a cornerstone

Of populist authoritarian movements.

[The Madcap]

6. Can he get us a discount??

Seriously, it really does depend on the degree. Also, it depends on where you go. In-state can cut costs quite a bit, especially if you have a scholarship or two. Loans are likely to still be a fact of life, though.

If you're on the border academically, it's probably a waste of time and money at this point.

[Lovie777]

7. Ummmmm......

not quite. A sizable amount of people know education of facts is essential to the future and their economic successes.

Just look at the current status of poorly educated assholes running the USA into the ground.

[Progressive dog]

11. The leaders running the USA into the ground

mostly have college degrees. Even that moron in the White House does. Apparently business courses don't teach that tariffs are taxes or that a 100% decrease leaves you with nothing.

[ProfessorGAC]

29. Oh, They Teach That

I can't think of one example in business school where tariffs, applied non-surgically, were described as anything other than a cost to consumers.
So, that concept is being taught; those fools just think they know better than all those professors and economic experts.

[Redleg]

51. I like to ask my economics colleagues if they have figured out tariffs yet

This is calculated to set them off and it works.

[ProfessorGAC]

58. Beauty!

They know, but so many economists have a mile wide libertarian streak, that tariffs are a conundrum.
They don't want government involving itself in business in any way, but tariffs can justify lower taxes (in theory).
Enough to make their head explode.
I had a gift membership in the Chicago Economics Club for 5 years in the late 90s - early aughts.
Quite an eye opener.

[Redleg]

59. I was fortunate to have some good econ professors in grad school

Who were quite critical of "supply-side" economics and seemed to hew more closely to neo-Keynsian ideas. I don't know where the econ folks in my college fall on the libertarian spectrum but I do know they are quite critical of the current administration's economic policies. This seems to be the case for many of the faculty in the business college.

[ProfessorGAC]

65. Good To Hear

Lots of Chicago School people in that club, so a pretty different philosophy.
The econ guy I had in MBA was a Heartland/Cato member who graduated from U of C.
I kept reminding him that XY relationships aren't that useful is a multivariate system.
As he knew I was a PhD chemist & and MS math guy, he got it as the needle I intended it to be.
Still got the best grade in class that term, so he could compartmentalize!

[bucolic_frolic]

9. You want to improve your life and get somewhere, but it's survival-of-the-fittest up top

Whatever you do, have a plan and a destination in mind.

I asked a guy I knew, who had a BA in philosophy and then an MA in Counseling, why philosophy majors seem to get somewhere in life. He said it was the learned communication skills, the ability to see all sides of people and perspectives. I stumbled across a professional who has an MA in philosophy, ok, from one of the most elite universities in the world, but he manages a mutual fund. That's getting somewhere without the technical financial skills. I'd be he does it by schmoozing elites for good investment ideas. There's those communication skills. Push your nephew YMBL!

[DFW]

26. I can relate to that

Though I never would have survived courses in philosophy or business, my “useless” mix of courses that interested me and (mandatory) courses that didn’t (including a semester of economics 101 at Wharton!) prepared me for this insane (but incredibly rewarding) job I have. Though there were no courses in the practical aspects (counterfeit detection, security, travel agent skills), the language/literature courses were vital in enabling me to establish solid bonds with my work colleagues around the world, and the critical thinking skills necessary to maintain them.

Luckily, my parents, even on my dad’s print journalist’s salary, were able to afford my tuition (1970-1974, a different world), so aid wasn’t an issue. In my last years, I used to hang with a guy who had been on a scholarship, but was too lazy to maintain his grades, and flunked out. This was the Vietnam War era, and he knew he would be drafted. So, he volunteered for the air force, told them he spoke German and Russian, and was immediately sent to “spy school.” He spent his military career in some secluded office in West Berlin, listening in on, recording and transcribing Soviet Air Force communications by day, and playing Russian folk music with local Berlin musicians by night. At least he returned in one piece.

[Lettuce Be]

10. About time someone realized most 4-year degrees are worthless

With the high cost of borrowing for college, unless you have a very specific career that requires higher degrees, it seems more prudent to try a trade school, assuming there's interest in that. Many years ago most of the clerks in my local Barnes & Noble had advanced degrees; all working for minimum wage.

[moniss]

12. Yes indeed and it is a rational conclusion given the current

state of affairs for costs. It would shock a great many people to realize that many students who are even maxing out their student loans and other financial aid are living in food insecurity. Part time jobs are not always plentiful enough in concentrated campus area environments. Even for various "staff" at universities there can be food insecurity because many are under a compensation structure that is inadequate. So yes, as I have noted in previous posts during the SNAP suspension, many universities have had food banks on campus for a long time prior to the recent SNAP interruption.

So the scenario we observe is a student going into debt for perhaps hundreds of thousands of dollars to pay the university but spending their time at the university wondering if they can eat and hoping for charitable kindness from others. So the idea that young people are waking up to the fact that making the supposed bargain of "mountains of debt in exchange for the piece of paper" and "hope you can find a job" all while going hungry is not a bargain at all considering the ample evidence in front of them of students graduating with that debt and not able to find a job in their field and then working retail or fast food and trying to deal with the mountain of debt.

[newdeal2]

13. I don't know what a college degree is worth in the age of AI

Lots of uncertainty about the future and what jobs will even exist.

I guess we'll see how enrollment holds up over time.

[Johnny2X2X]

34. $1.5 Million

that’s what it’s worth today over the course of careers for someone who graduates college today vs someone who doesn’t. That goes up if you get a Masters or doctorate.

[Happy Hoosier]

35. So far, AI can't really replace thinking.

In my experience, it’s great at finding information. It’s good at correlating information. It’s fair at synthesizing information, and absolute crap at using that for anything extrapolative. About half the time, it’s a non-functional kludge and the other half it’s a barely functional mess.

[newdeal2]

43. There is job loss already

Especially at entry level jobs across a variety of fields. There may be even more job loss if and when the AI bubble bursts.

Yes AI is overhyped a bit, but we’re still in early innings and it is getting better even at creative jobs which have historically been safe from automation.

[intheflow]

16. Congratulations, Higher Ed. You've priced yourself out of students!

I mean, who could have seen this coming? eyes:

[Happy Hoosier]

36. Prices are out of control...

… but enrollments are still creeping up. Folks can and do pay more than they think something is worth because they still see that thing as necessary.

[róisín_dubh]

44. Decreased state and federal funds...

Thanks to conservatives, have made state universities insanely expensive.

Harvard et al were always expensive. State schools weren’t.

[MichMan]

61. Yet, blue states don't seem to be any cheaper than red states n/t

University of Illinois Springfield tuition is $12,472 in state while Indiana University is $11,790

[Greybnk48]

62. That's 100% true in the state of Wisconsin.

The Republican's screamed "cut taxes" and targeted the State University system since the 90's (or earlier). By the late 90's, over 70% of our University State funding had been cut.

The Tea Party came to power (sponsored by two Texas politicians Gramm and Sargeant aka "hook and crook&quot in 2010 with Scott Walker, and put in a Republican gerrymander that is just now being dismantled (I hope), since it's almost impossible for State Democratic candidates to overcome.

We've recently lost our entire 2 year University Campus system, 13 campuses, a system that was a real money saver for less affluent students, or students not quite ready to leave home. A real shame for our State.

[raccoon]

66. Thank you! I used to work at a community college, and that was the case there.

[murielm99]

17. That means that people do not understand

the difference between education and job training.

[Skittles]

23. seeing how many college-educated people are complete idiots

working for Trump, for example

it's not hard to get confused

[Happy Hoosier]

37. C's get degrees.

Remember that half of college grads are below the median.

[Sympthsical]

18. We're about 20-30 years late on this one

As soon as college became a big money business through easy loans, they've become degree factories. Write your papers, do your assignments, get your piece of paper. As long as that loan clears.

Come hell or high water, get that piece of paper.

And people were told, "If you have that piece of paper, you get a comfortable, middle class life."

That has been a case of diminishing returns for some time. As someone who has been around college students for the past five years in a variety of environments (from comm colleges to UC programs) - these are not scholars. Basic math skills are lacking. Piecing together coherent paragraphs is a skill not required. AI is accelerating this. Social media are replete with people who cannot laterally read for information and context to save their lives. Being told, "Write this paper, and we'll graduate you" does not a critical thinking factory make. I've seen self-fancied "educated" people on social media. L.O.L. We don't live in that world anymore. No one's tuning in to watch Gore Vidal take on William Buckley. It's people like Ben Shapiro on their side and know nothings like Hasan Piker on ours. Mush heads who have confused partisan entertainment for genuine scholarship.

Yes, there will always be people who go to college and become scholars, leaders in their fields, and deeply knowledgeable individuals. But the vast majority of degree holders are simply getting that piece of paper that says they can go get a job.

And once you can't even get that job, why are you paying for this shit?

College does not mean educated. Not in the way people think. Not anymore. Not for decades.

And I say that as someone who has spent a lot of time in college and has many pieces of paper. And I'm on my way to get even more. But this time, the shit's going to be actually useful for a change.

Academia needs an overhaul, and it's a disservice to future generations that we have been so stubborn about recognizing that out of a misplaced sense of partisanship. Republicans hate academia because they think they indoctrinate people. I hate academia, because they are not actually providing education and instead have become debt vehicles for our children and do not realistically prepare them for the demands of our modern economy.

Those are different things, and we should be able to hold space for them.

[leftstreet]

19. +1

[JI7]

25. Yes, What Trump is doing is wrong but I have a hard time supporting

the institutions as they are now.

These are supposed to be left leaning institutions and for all the lecturing they do about other areas and fighting the "powers that be" they themselves have become about just generating wealth for the privileged. It's not as if all that wealth is being spread out to educate and benefit more people.

[Sympthsical]

28. And it's an important distinction

Thinking reform is required does not mean giving a thumbs up to Trumpian blackmail schemes, but some people try to confound the issue by mixing the two.

A lot of this started with Reagan when colleges became considered consumer goods instead of a public resource worthy of funding. And once you rely on consumers, well, products and services become king.

[Happy Hoosier]

39. I think you're wrong here....

You said, “I hate academia, because they are not actually providing education and instead have become debt vehicles for our children and do not realistically prepare them for the demands of our modern economy.”

I think you have that very wrong. Academia doesn’t do that. The big business of universities does. The academics I know (including my wife) focus intensely on relaying transferable skills that have value in a wide variety of settings… research, source vetting, constructing and supporting an effective argument. Unless you’re going for a professional degree, it almost doesn’t matter what you study. It matters what skills you acquire. Lots of academics know that and structure programs to support that approach. It discourages me to see so many on our side buy in to the idea that college should just be a jobs training program.

[róisín_dubh]

45. Yup, especially the last part.

The anti-intellectualism among Democrats is almost more disappointing to me. education is supposed to be a great leveller, to teach anyone to think big, think critically and express themselves intelligently. Academics (in my field in particular) could do way better to make themselves more accessible to the masses.
But the “most people should learn a trade” mentality is bullshit; know who’s NOT telling their kids to learn a trade? Rich people.
If you want to learn a trade, go do it. But we don’t need 100 million tradespeople. We need people who learn how to think and create and explore and then take those skills into the bigger world.

[Sympthsical]

46. What's your disagreement specifically?

"The academics I know (including my wife) focus intensely on relaying transferable skills that have value in a wide variety of settings… research, source vetting, constructing and supporting an effective argument. Unless you’re going for a professional degree, it almost doesn’t matter what you study. It matters what skills you acquire."

I've taken these classes. They usually fall under writing and research courses that freshman commonly take. If you're advancing to degrees like English and History, you'll probably develop these more deeply.

Now. You've been on the Internet. You've met people. Do you see those skills in use on a daily basis among people with undergraduate degrees? That they vet sources, laterally read, digest context - hell, actually read entire articles past the headlines and maybe three sentences? How many are reading an article and thinking, "Hmm. I don't know if this is true. I should read more articles from varied sources to make sure I fully understand this?" I know where I land on this. Running into people who do that is like encountering a unicorn in the wild.

The problem - again, for the vast majority of degree holders - is that college is easy, disposable content that costs way, way too much money and ultimately isn't necessary for what they end up doing afterward (outside of specific fields). Who fails out of an undergraduate program these days? I'm not talking about dropping out due to financial difficulties, life situation, or changes in wants and goals. I'm talking about failed out because the content is even passingly challenging?

And let me meet you in the middle on this - I don't think it's the professors' fault. I've read article after article and heard from teachers in my own life that they are being passed students from K-12 who do not have the same reading, writing, and math skills they used to. They are pressured by the administration to make their courses easier and to pass as many students as they can. Because the students are paying for a product - the degree - and they need to get what they're paying for.

Hell, just go through this Reddit thread and tell me there isn't a massive problem with the cost vs. benefit college currently represents:

https://www.reddit.com/r/Professors/comments/1hnk08c/is_college_nowadays_easier_or_harder_than_before/

And to meet you in the middle again - it's not just college. Ask people in for-profit hospitals about the endless performance and customer satisfaction evaluations. Sure, we just saved your life, but were we sufficiently acquiescent to the custo . . . er, patient?

This country has a broken psychology because of profit motives.

[JI7]

20. People need to be realistic

Overall you do have a better chance with a job but also think about what kind of job you want and how much money do you expect.

Consider community college and state colleges if it will be less expensive.

[fujiyamasan]

21. There's no free lunch here

Either society pushes nearly everyone to attend college, and therefore a significant number of people to take out unsustainable debt, or fewer people go to college.

I’m kind of amused when people talk about European university costs. Sure it’s much cheaper, but the universities there are open to far fewer people, where they begin choosing a career at a far younger age, and the universities are more selective on average (compared to say most state universities).

Besides, what is the justification for tuition skyrocketing in the first place? Given the revelations about Epstein we’ve got so far, and the capitulation by many elite universities to Trump, my respect for many higher education institutions has drastically plummeted.

Maybe people are figuring out that so much of the marketing by universities is BS, if not an outright scam, by both for profit universities and not for profits alike.

[mr715]

56. Okay, there is no comparison

between for profit and not for profit.

One is a scam, the other is a school.

[Jacson6]

24. I never would have gone to college forty years ago.

If I didn't the receive the Veterans Education Assistance Plan after I served four years in the Army. It was hard to serve four years, but worth it. I had to Pay $2,400 while I was in the service, but I receive $22k for college. I couldn't get a college loan for anything so I joined the service.

[JCMach1]

27. Corporate and anti-intellectual propaganda marches on

And Continues to dumb down our country.

[MichMan]

30. It doesn't help when the K-12 education is so lacking, that colleges have to offer remedial classes

People are taxed to provide a K-12 education, yet the educational system is such an abject failure, that many college students have to pay thousands of dollars to learn material that they already should know. In 2024, 25% of those Freshmen having to take remedial math college classes actually received a 4.0 in their High School math courses. Just what they hell were they being taught?

High GPAs And Test Optional Mask Poor Math Skills At College

UC San Diego’s own faculty report shows a thirtyfold jump since 2020 in freshmen arriving with math skills below the middle-school level, raising concerns about admissions practices and student readiness.

A new report from UC San Diego’s Academic Senate highlights something incredibly concerning about the state of higher education: the share of incoming freshmen who test below middle-school math standards has increased nearly thirtyfold in five years. The document (PDF File) describes an admissions system strained by policy shifts, pandemic education losses, grade inflation, and a widening gap between transcripts and actual skills. The findings are not coming from critics outside the institution. They are the university’s own.

And they point to a glaring problem at the heart of California’s public higher education system: more students are paying university-level tuition for instruction that veers closer to elementary school material. At the same time, academically stronger applicants (many of whom could have enrolled ready for college-level work) were likely turned away during a year of record demand.

Math 2, the university’s longstanding remedial course, was originally designed to address gaps from Algebra I, Geometry, and Algebra II - content California high schools must provide. But instructors during the 2023-24 academic year reported something new: many students could not perform skills typically taught in elementary and early middle school. In response, faculty redesigned Math 2 in 2024 to cover material aligned with grades 1 through 8 (yes, elementary and middle school level) and created an additional course, Math 3B, to catch-up missing high school topics.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/careersandeducation/high-gpas-and-test-optional-mask-poor-math-skills-at-college/ar-AA1QoHtD?ocid=BingNewsVerp

[Johnny2X2X]

31. You know who does think it's worth it?

The rich and the ruling class think it’s worth it. They’re sending their kids to college, they just don’t want you to send your kids to college so they’ll have more control over them.

More than ever, a college education is most people’s only ticket to the middle class. Especially in the age of AI.

[Happy Hoosier]

40. Absolutely true, IMO

The ruling class needs to perpetuate class differentials. One of the easiest ways of doing that is by reserving a college education for the eilte.

Military officers, who pretty much all have college degrees rule over the enlisted tanks, who mostly don’t. A 22 year old Ensign with a degree outranks a 50 year old Master Chief without one.

It’s a machine.

[Johnny2X2X]

41. Just disturbing to me the anti college rhetoric that has taken hold

It’s taken root in the left now too.

Who do people think will be able to benefit from AI? The college educated or the non college educated?

It’s still a world full of good jobs where a college degree is needed just to get interview. It’s still a way for employers to know this applicant showed up for 4 years, was able to follow directions, absorb information, solve problems, and manage their time.

People are so worried AI is going to render their degree worthless when they should be learning about how AI can enhance their degrees.

[Prairie Gates]

48. Agreed

Embarrassing.

[Iris]

54. THIS

[Prairie Gates]

47. What's hilarious is that the degrees now considered "useful" are the ones that were only recently invented

and that you don't really need a college degree for. Take Accounting, for example, the pinnacle of "usefulness" in a college degree. "Oh, your daughter is majoring in Philosophy? Haha? Will she be a barista? My son is majoring in Accounting!"

Accounting is a fairly recent invention. It used to be a job you could do if you had a little math sense and decent on the job training. It was called bookkeeping. Generations of Americans up until the 1960s were bookkeepers without a college degree - some without a high school degree! Are there now specialist needs for accounting? Sure. But most accountancy in practice remains little more than a glorified version of the bookkeeping of the 1930s through 1970s, when you could pick it up in semi-apprenticeship on the job.

I would throw most aspects of business degrees and computer science into the same bag. Economics is now about being able to spit out and apply a particular version of capitalist propaganda. Finance is an ethical disaster area. Management is training in conducting reviews, keeping track of compliance training, and firing people. The idea that one needs a four-year degree for any of these activities is an absolute joke. But you do need a degree to curate and run a museum: it's called art history and museum management. You know, barista degrees.

Now, what about the Philosophy major daughter? It's certainly true that you can't be a professional philosopher these days (could you ever?), except in the rapidly shrinking academic humanities, and they're not hiring. It's sad. We will have less interesting books (and films, and music, and art, and architecture). But the myth of the philosophy major never getting a relevant or useful job is simply that, a myth. Many go into law. Other go into business, learning the details of the various trades on the job or in training programs (Goldman used to favor philosophy majors over finance bros for their investment banker training because they were better able to read and analyze texts - that's probably changed, but the principle remains the same). Others go into various other fields, or get a specialist degree postgrad.

And anyway, if the poll didn't show results you all liked, you'd judge its language for what it very obviously is, a clownish push poll.

[Redleg]

52. I think you've simplified what the business disciplines are

I teach management in a business college and I can assure you it involves much more than what you listed. And speaking for my colleagues in finance and econ- they are certainly concerned about the moral implications of economic policy, likely much more than the average corporate executive.

[Iris]

60. Well said

And the philosopher wine-selling nephew at least has a semblance of the education he would have expected at university 50 years ago.

[Jedi Guy]

49. "I have a nephew who received a BA in Philosophy who works at a Total Wine and More store."

Reminds me of a quote attributed to Bruce Lee. When he and Linda were dating and she brought him home to meet her parents, her father asked him what he was studying and Lee responded that he was getting a degree in philosophy.

Her father then asked what Lee intended to do with that philosophy degree and Lee quipped, "Think deep thoughts about being unemployed".

[Johnny2X2X]

50. Everybody has an anecdote about some student with a French poetry degree

But the reality is most degrees are useful in today’s economy.

Here’s the most popular ones right now:
1 Business 375,418 18.6% $71,000
2 Health 263,765 13% $70,000
3 Social sciences and history 151,109 7.4% $70,000
4 Biological and biomedical sciences 131,462 6.5% $71,000
5 Psychology 129,609 6.4% $55,000
6 Engineering 123,017 6.1% $100,000
7 Computer and information sciences 108,503 5.4% $95,000
8 Visual and performing arts 90,241 4.5% $50,000
9 Education 89,410 4.4% $52,000
10 Communication and journalism 86,043 4.3% $60,000
Total All majors 2,015,035 100.0% $92,260 [3]

[Iris]

63. It's not the degrees themselves that are useful, but the habits of mind that the holders of the degrees have developed

[Johnny2X2X]

64. Well yeah.

The degree represents those habits as accurately as anything else potential employers have found.

And most of those degrees listed require real world experience in the form of internships and coops. A lot of those fields require multiple internships.

Hell, I’ve had interns a lot of years who are just so ahead of the game that I learned more from them than they did from me.

[ALBliberal]

53. My kids have college degrees and they aren't making much

Money from them. But it has given them entry level jobs and opened doors. However, I tell them their degrees helped extend learning and critical thinking skills past high school. And I am very proud of all three of them for achieving degrees.

That being said, I totally support a path to trade and technical schools. I feel what’s missing in all of this is that middle ground position. Why not make both affordable? Why come up with words like “elitist” to ridicule college educated people (referring to MAGA here).

Just my two cents

[mr715]

55. If we reduce everything to dollars

I guess this is true.

But colleges aren't (shouldn't) be about that. They are places where ideas are born, nourished, challenged, developed, and shared.

I don't know the dollar value of me reading Hume or Plato's dialogues, but my life I richer for it.

College is too expensive. It shouldn't be. But it is where lifelong learners are taught to learn.

[bucolic_frolic]

57. If you take 2 years tuition and plunk it in Tech growth stocks

You can retire by 30 or 35. College can't measure up, money-wise.