Israel/Palestine
Related: About this forumThe BBC is reporting more "details" about the "plan" and
as suspected it never is about full Israeli withdrawal. The plan has "further" withdrawals to 40% of the territory and then 15% with a determination to be made at some foggy point in the future when apparently the US and Israel decide the territory would remain with IDF troops " until Gaza is properly secure from any resurgent terror threat". An obvious open ended ability to never leave.
Also of note is that nowhere in the "plan" is there any discussion about keeping the Israeli squatters out of Gaza. We know that it is an absolute push by people like Smotrich and Ben Gvir to have the squatters flood into Gaza. When we see what they have done in the West Bank, a much bigger area than Gaza, it is easy to see that in very short time the entirety of Gaza would be filled with the squatters and the illegal settlements would be protected by the IDF and violence by the squatters against the Palestinians would be ignored, excused and even abetted the way it is now in the West Bank.
While this lull in the bombing, return of hostages, aid trucks returning are all good things there are apparently no actual stated firm end goals for the Palestinians with clearly laid out timelines for negotiations. After the hostages are released it's "anything goes" and Netanyahu can simply disagree with any further proposals, a known tactic, and then just resume military operations and encroachment.
So no two state goal in this "plan". Only the stated decree that Crumb The 1st, Tony Blair (basically the Brits coming back in) and Netanyahu will be the bosses of what goes on for any and all further actions including clean-up, rebuilding, where people can live, what they can have, what price the Palestinians will pay for it all (I smell the IMF on the horizon) etc. In other words the Palestinians are told they can stay or go, return later if they wish but ultimately if they want something different than the 3 bosses want it won't happen.
This is why I doubt very much that this "plan" was ever seriously about anything more than getting the hostages out. Once that happens it's all a vague crap-shoot of a plan with even less in the way of teeth than has come before in the last nearly 70 years. The UN could make progress on this if the US were sidelined from it's veto but that won't happen. The western nations that basically anointed themselves over the decades as the ones to be in charge of "negotiations" should all be shown the door given their dishonest and mealy mouthed conduct over the many years.
Because there will not be a change at the UN this will end up being more jockeying by the powerful parties looking out for their own interests, control and power and will not be about correcting the mistakes of the last over 100 years in Palestine. It would be nice if it were so but the construct of this "plan" and the long track record of the Western nations in this region provide no basis for any hope or confidence.
https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cvgqx7ygq41o

sabbat hunter
(7,045 posts)Palestine proclaimed statehood in 1948, at the same time as Israel. Or anytime between 1948 and 1967, when Israel took control of the WB, and Gaza. We might not be in this situation. Palestine would have more land than the will under the current borders of WB, and Gaza. Palestinians fellow Arabs did them no favors for decades.
Bibi needs to be in jail, along with Abbas, and members of Hamas. Palestine declared along the approximate pre-1967 borders. The Kahanist parties, and its members need to be banned from elective office in Israel.
Response to sabbat hunter (Reply #1)
AloeVera This message was self-deleted by its author.
AloeVera
(3,816 posts)It advised its readers not to be concerned about it - the plan was only rhetoric!
Israel will not be stopped in its goal of emptying Gaza for itself and its squatters, as you call them (an accurate description). At the same time, Netanyahu needed to stop the bleeding of goodwill towards Israel and also get the hostages back to stop the internal revolt. So he turned to Trump and his good buddy Kushner to come up with a "peace plan" that will help with that.
No doubt in my mind that Israel will not withdraw completely, ever and as time goes by it will find pretexts and excuses for expanding its occupation to all of Gaza. The clause in the agreement that says Israel will not return to areas that have been withdrawn from "as long as Hamas fully implements the agreement" was written to make that possible. I mean who believes Israel will act in good faith in making that determination?
Every peace treaty that Israel ever signed was advantageous to itself in the initial phase, which of course was always fulfilled. However the subsequent phases required Israel to give up something in return - which of course didn't happen. The violations of the latter phases of peace agreements by Israel form a historical pattern, from Camp David to Oslo to the Gaza 2025 ceasefire. I fear the same pattern will be repeated here.
But in any case this particular "peace plan" is an abomination if you believe in justice for Palestinians.
sabbat hunter
(7,045 posts)Israel gave up the entirety of the Sinai for peace with Egypt. Back then even the right wing in Israel believed in land for peace. At one point Israel was willing to give up control of the west bank back to Jordan for peace. But Jordan didn't want anything to do with the West Bank any more after all its issues with the PLO in Jordan itself.
Israel still signed peace accords with Jordan, with neither side really giving anything up.
AloeVera
(3,816 posts)What Israel " gave up" as you call it was an occupation, not sovereignty. As well it should have. International law and the UN Charter ban acquiring territory through war. Not that that matters to Israel, with its history of annexation and now hell- bent on annexing at least the West Bank.
Israel was never willing to give up the West Bank. Surely you are not referring to the
1987 attempt by Israeli foreign affairs minister Shimon Peres and King Hussein to SECRETLY arrange a peace agreement in which Israel would concede the West Bank to Jordan. Peres had no authority to sign such an agreement, had no political or popular support for it and of course it was rejected by Israeli PM Shamir.
But contrary to what you claim, Jordan did indeed want the West Bank.
sabbat hunter
(7,045 posts)is Israel giving something in return for peace, what would you consider Israel giving up something?
AloeVera
(3,816 posts)What would you consider the right thing for Israel to do?