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In reply to the discussion: On Human Beings [View all]

H2O Man

(78,990 posts)
28. Good question!
Tue Mar 17, 2026, 05:04 PM
22 hrs ago

Let's start with that chart, which is based largely upon Dr. Hare's checklist. His 1993 "Without Conscience: The Disturbing World of Psychopaths Among Us" is essential reading. I was trained by his top student, J. Reid Meloy, who a few decades ago was recognized as the leading expert in this field in the USA, often serving as an expert witness in court cases. (The last I heard, after 9/11, he began working with military intelligence.)

You may recall that in the first of the three interviews I did with Dr. Bandy Lee for DU in 2020 -- it may have posted in February that year -- I asked her about applying the terms psychopath, sociopath, and malignant narcissist to the then president. Being old, I am long retired, and insurance companies' influence has changed the "official" diagnoses in the DSM for billing purposes. I had some good DU discussions with a forensic psychologist at the time.

However, in an attempt to avoid being obnoxiously long winded, let's consider each term. Psychopath's root implies the brain, sociopath implies environment, and malignant narcissist is Erich Fromm's name for these types of people. Obviously, there is a range -- not all of them are murderers, of course. It is a spectrum of features, and thus not everyone of them would score the exact same on Dr. Hare's checklist.

(I apologize if this is disjointed, as I have had a series of phone calls while attempting to respond here. As an old man who at times finds himself asking, "Why did I come into this room?" it can post the risk of rambling when trying to write.)

In the old days, other than in court ordered cases, one could only charge for three visits with type of person in the office. As there really isn't a "cure" beyond some reaching a plateau around the age of 50, incarceration, or death, insurance companies were not interested in paying for long-term treatment that doesn't work. Thus the DSM adjustment to make sociopathy an extension of anti-social personality disorder. However, most actual ASPD people have an honor code -- not the same as society's, of course -- including, for example, when mafia members would opt for long incarceration over ratting out their associates. In that code, being a rat could earn one concrete shoes larger than Marco's. Sociopaths do not have codes of honor, and this president has a long history of behavior that illustrates that.

Now, brain scans do indicate differences in important regions of the brain. These tend to be scans of the worst of the worst, rather than sociopathic bankers, investors, lawyers, or politicians. These differences are very important. But again, there is a spectrum. DNA plays a role beyond brain structure. I'll use the example of Manson, who had a raging case of short man disease as a result of being a runt. So he had a runt strain of DNA, so to speak, that in the environments he inhabited played a significant role in his criminal history.

I have good friends who are younger and in the field, that use "psychopath" in terms of the worst of the worst, and "sociopath" for someone with either less features on Hare's checklist or less violent or threatening behaviors. I have no problem with that. One friend who used to post here frequently noted that psychopaths have "dead eyes," which were uncomfortable. I've encountered that. But being old, stubborn, and Irish (DNA & environment), I still prefer "sociopath" because it includes both sides of the coin and the features found on that spectrum. I hope this makes some sense!

Those around my age tend to hold that DNA/heredity and environment are two sides of the same coin.


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On Human Beings [View all] H2O Man Monday OP
Excellent. Thank you. LoisB Monday #1
Thank you! H2O Man Monday #3
We have for generations watched television shows... Morbius Monday #2
Great points. H2O Man Monday #5
IMO, households (expectations) have been greatly influenced by TV FHRRK1 21 hrs ago #32
K&R spanone Monday #4
Thanks! H2O Man Monday #7
We sure are faced with evil malaise Monday #6
Thank you! H2O Man Monday #8
Yep malaise Monday #9
Right. H2O Man Monday #10
If he had to personally attack Iran without some payback, it never would have happened. HighFired49 Monday #18
I suppose evil is subjective Saoirse9 Monday #11
I agree and disagree. H2O Man Yesterday #22
Thank you for your thoughts. You draw attention to the questions that need asking. yellow dahlia Monday #12
Thank you. H2O Man Yesterday #23
Indeed - like a miasma. yellow dahlia 21 hrs ago #30
I think that was the time from a high mountain top the devil showed and promised Jesus all the kingdoms of the earth. spike jones Monday #13
Great point. H2O Man Yesterday #24
I agree AZProgressive Monday #14
Right. H2O Man Yesterday #25
Get thee behind me, Donald. Mblaze Monday #15
Sometimes H2O Man Yesterday #26
Every day in every way Mblaze 4 hrs ago #35
Thanks so much, H2O ... littlemissmartypants Monday #16
Good question! H2O Man 22 hrs ago #28
Thanks so much for your reply! I'm so glad that I asked. Lots to ponder. 🤓❤️ littlemissmartypants 18 hrs ago #34
Well written H2O Man. flashman13 Monday #17
Thanks! H2O Man 22 hrs ago #29
I have long believed that we could eliminate a lot of evil in the world wnylib Yesterday #19
Agree 100% H2O Man 1 hr ago #36
Being tortured I_UndergroundPanther Yesterday #20
Good points! H2O Man 35 min ago #37
War isn't a video game. It's up close, personal, horrific, tragic. Martin Eden Yesterday #21
Thank you! H2O Man 25 min ago #38
Grandmom's advice Whip-poor-will 23 hrs ago #27
Beautiful! H2O Man 23 min ago #39
humans need to evolve so the worst of us is as good as the best of us now. cynical_idealist 21 hrs ago #31
Imagine that! H2O Man 19 min ago #40
Good people lift others up. usonian 21 hrs ago #33
Well said. H2O Man 9 min ago #41
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